Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

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pmc
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by pmc » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:02 am

Paging Mr. Macknight...

Mr. Macknight, you have a call on the blue phone.

quicksilver-wsr
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:44 pm

pmc wrote:Paging Mr. Macknight...

Mr. Macknight, you have a call on the blue phone.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, here I am! And don't be fooled by the silver cape and mask, by the way. I'm really quite normal.

Without getting into it in too much detail, Ken Norris felt that the K7 design could perhaps have got another record, had it had a few key mods. But that was before Ken Warby set the 317.6 mph record. The jury will always be out on whether K7 could do it or not - unless someone actually went ahead and tried it to see one way or the other.

The question as to whether the K7 format could get another record or not was really only an academic one for Ken Norris. If people asked him, he had an answer, but that doesn't mean he would have gone along with it all the way to the point where he was actually standing on a lakeside watching a driver in that boat attempt 300mph-plus.

My own feeling, based on what I saw in 30 years of knowing the man and twelve years of actually working alongside him on these things, is that Ken would have found a way of dragging it out so it never actually got proved one way or the other. And, thinking back, who could blame him?

Getting away from the academic question of whether the K7 design could get another record, Ken's real thoughts were on having a new design. This thinking process started even while Donald was still alive. There was meant to be new Bluebird boat - a boat designed along the lines of the CN7 car - but Donald's death put paid to any progress on that. A boat based on a car? Yes, there was some original thinking at work, to be sure, but it probably wouldn't have happened, even if Donald had lived. They would have concentrated on the Mach 1.1 car instead. That's my view.

You then get into the Quicksilver project. That was really where Ken got engrossed into the ideas as to whether there was a better way of designing and building a boat. A boat that would be superior to K7 in terms of its configuration, and not just in terms of its construction methods and gee-whiz onboard systems, but fundamentally a superior layout.

I could write a book about that - just based on Ken's thinking, and the tests that were done, and the things that resulted from those tests - and one day maybe I will.

It's too much to put into a forum post, and in any case doesn't answer the question about K7.

Nigel

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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:17 pm

A quick postscript to my post above, as it may not be entirely clear why I referenced Ken Norris to the extent that I did ...

First reason is that, while Ken was alive, the only way a new K7 could have been built was with Ken's approval. While after his death, anyone with the authority to sign-off on the design being used again would want (I believe) to weigh carefully what Ken's views had been on the suitability of that configuration for speeds over 317mph. And Ken thought that layout unsuitable for those sorts of speeds.

Second reason is that if Ken - who knew the K7 design better than anyone - had thought it was the way to go for a 317mph-plus record, he would have said so. Instead, he espoused configurations that were very different to K7 (hence Quicksilver).

Hope this clarifies.

Nigel

Gareth Hayes
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by Gareth Hayes » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:21 pm

It most certainly does. Thanks for the reply. Basically if the designer of K7 felt the basic configuration felt that the design couldn't be used for 317+ then that's probably it. I'm glad in a way. It makes the original all the more unique that nothing that looks like her can be used for more attempts at the WWSR.

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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:41 pm

Hi Gareth - I don't want to say that a K7-pattern boat couldn't average 317mph-plus, two-way. Maybe it could, maybe it couldn't. The only way to find out would be for someone to try it - although that's clearly not the work of five minutes!

Ken Norris didn't think it was right for those sorts of speeds. That's all I am really saying.

As you imply, maybe K7 should stay a one-off. It made history - thanks to all the people involved in it.

Nigel

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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by f1steveuk » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:11 am

Jog my memory, I think I posted a picture of the big white model of the befined, CN7 based boat, somewhere on her, with a young looking Davis de Lara standing next to it, when the three of us (Ken, David and myself) gave a talk at Southhampton Uni'.

I also posted a picture of the yellow, four point "K7", that Ken at one time felt would be the next step. I'd post them again, if my laptop hadn't decided that I didn't need a lot of my old files, and lost them!!

As for would K7 take another record, well that's partially the reaason Bill has a set of drawings. Nigel Christopher and I, on Quicksilver's behalf, extracted the drawings from the science museum, and made two sets of copies. One was for Ken to keep, the other, for the QS team to work from. Another reason was one Graham Murgatroyd, who was going to finance the building of a new "K7" from the drawings to prove how good it was. Seem to recall he owned a metal fastenings company, but it went quiet, and it never happened. Ken was luke warm about it, prefering to do something new, but happy to see K7s principle's proved beyond doubt.
Steve Holter, UK and France, and sometimes reality....................

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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:48 pm

f1steveuk wrote:Jog my memory, I think I posted a picture of the big white model of the befined, CN7 based boat, somewhere on her, with a young looking Davis de Lara standing next to it, when the three of us (Ken, David and myself) gave a talk at Southhampton Uni'.

I also posted a picture of the yellow, four point "K7", that Ken at one time felt would be the next step. I'd post them again, if my laptop hadn't decided that I didn't need a lot of my old files, and lost them!!

As for would K7 take another record, well that's partially the reason Bill has a set of drawings. Nigel Christopher and I, on Quicksilver's behalf, extracted the drawings from the science museum, and made two sets of copies. One was for Ken to keep, the other, for the QS team to work from. Another reason was one Graham Murgatroyd, who was going to finance the building of a new "K7" from the drawings to prove how good it was. Seem to recall he owned a metal fastenings company, but it went quiet, and it never happened. Ken was luke warm about it, prefering to do something new, but happy to see K7s principle's proved beyond doubt.
Hi Steve,

Quick(ish) answers here, so I don't get into the lengthy posts I got into in early days ...

1. As far as I know, Ken never had the big white "flying-wing boat" model in his possession. I have always kept it with me, and kept within arm's-reach when it's had to go anywhere - other than the short time the University of Southampton had it.

Chances are that the talk you refer to was one in which you assisted Ken - who was the main speaker - and then I came on at the end. It was the first time the Quicksilver project had been mentioned and described at a public event, and I probably had the model at that.

If it wasn't that talk, and was maybe some other talk, then I venture to suggest that the big white model wasn't there on that occasion.

2. The "yellow" K7-derived four-pointer was actually a design that Ken did as part of his involvement in the Quicksilver project. The artwork you refer to is my copyright and it was the work of the late Terry Godfrey, who coincidentally was the man with whom I jointly designed the Quicksilver logo.

The boat is silver in the original artwork, but some so-and-so got hold of a copy somehow (it had to be from Ken) and altered the colour to yellow to make it look like it wasn't a Quicksilver concept. Naughty - and I'm sure it was nothing to do with you, Steve - but I won't be so lenient next time I see someone ripping off our stuff and trying to alter history.

3. No dispute with you, my old mate, but I don't rate the Graham Murgatroyd thing at all. It was a classic chat-over-lunch-at-Ken's-flying-club thing. He was never going to put the commitment into it to make it happen, and Ken was never going to go along with it all the way. In my view - no way, ever.

4. With the set of K7 drawings, don't forget that Ken was a 50% shareholder in the Quicksilver project company at that time, so when you say he wanted two sets - one for himself and one for the Quicksilver team - what it's more accurate to say is that he wanted one set for himself and one set for me.

The idea - Ken's idea - was that because we were geographically so far away from each other - 225 miles, I think it was - if there were two sets, that would be the best way to go. It's possible that Ken had an alternative agenda to what he was telling me, but the way he told it to me was, "For every part we needed to make for Bluebird back in the day, there will be a corresponding part we need to make for Quicksilver - so we'll work our way through those drawings, getting the bits made one by one."

5. I gratefully acknowledge that you and Nigel Christopher put in a massive load of graft photocopying the hundreds of K7 documents at Ken's office, but I spent well over £1,000 in today's money from the Quicksilver coffers to get the big drawings copied by a technical-drawing company at Bournemouth Airport, and also paid for all of the K7 documents and drawings to be moved from the Science Museum to Ken's, and back again afterwards - including signing my name on a document taking personal responsibility for their safekeeping - and I would not have been happy doing that if I thought they were going to be for somebody else's benefit - namely Graham Murgatroyd's.

As a footnote, Ken had fallen out big-time with the Science Museum prior to all this, and it was only by some skillful and patient diplomacy that I was able to mend bridges on Ken's behalf and get the stuff released in the first place.

I don't think too much credence should be given to Graham Murgatroyd's "plan" to build another K7, or to Ken's supposed acquiescence to this "scheme", as Graham Murgatroyd was a time-waster who disappeared without trace as quickly as he had appeared, and Ken no-way wanted to see a K7 hurtling down the lake again on a record bid, whatever he might have said to the contrary.

No beef here on my part - just making darn sure the record's straight, as things as-sure-as-anything get distorted with time.

Nigel

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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by f1steveuk » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:48 pm

No problem Nigel. I was on the periphery of all this anyway. The talk was being filmed by David I think, so I was there in my "TV" capacity. I just recall taking a snap of DDL with the big white boat. My other role was supplying Ken with copious amounts of stat's, speeds, names and dates. I recall working out the BHP to weight ratio's of numerous craft, which Ken didn't use!!!

Ah the Science Museum, Graham Fyffe!!! Drawings in a basement under a drippping pipe. I think that was the closest to hearing Ken swear I ever got. He was fuming, in his own quiet, calm way.

I do actually believe the "yellow Quicksilver" came to me from Ken, and I'm not certain he knew who had done it. I quite liked the idea though.

I knew Murgatroyd was a waste of time when he kept me on the phone for over an hour telling me how good he was. My addled brain says, he was badgering Ken for a loan or a chance to copy his set of copies. But yes, you're spot on, a dreamer of the highest order.
Steve Holter, UK and France, and sometimes reality....................

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rob565uk
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by rob565uk » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:17 pm

That should be:
"Spot on"
Make manic grin showing double the normal allowance of teeth and then repeat
"Spot on"

:-)

He's a great character and just the right man for this job in IMHO.......

1 in 10 people understands binary. The other one doesn't

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rob565uk
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by rob565uk » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:09 pm

That's Mega is that, Mega

1 in 10 people understands binary. The other one doesn't

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