The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

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Piston Broke
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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by Piston Broke » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:14 am

quicksilver-wsr wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:38 am
Cessnas and Airbuses shouldn't be flying on the edge. Fast jets do, a lot of the time. They are more prone to accidents, on account of the way they are flown - even in training.

Nigel
Why ? Just pilot bravado, going back to cars thats like saying a Ford Focus on the motorway isn't on the edge but a Supercar will be and more likely to crash. both should be adhearing to the same rules it is down to how the driver/pilot operates the vehicle. As I said previously "unless you are pushing the envelope you shouldn't need to eject." and as you said "They are more prone to accidents, on account of the way they are flown " don't fly it that way then
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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:19 am

Alain, fast jets were designed to be flown to extremes. That's their role in life.

Even when not in combat, pilots have to train for combat situations by flying them on the edge.

Nigel

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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by Piston Broke » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:24 am

quicksilver-wsr wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:19 am
Alain, fast jets were designed to be flown to extremes. That's their role in life.

Even when not in combat, pilots have to train for combat situations by flying them on the edge.

Nigel
When are civilian pilots in combat situations?
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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:35 am

They aren't, Alain - but when fast jets are in civilian hands they are just as hard to escape from in emergency situations as they are, or were, in military use. So it's best - in my view - to make use of the ejector-seats that are already fitted to these planes from new. They are there for a reason.

Service them, arm them and be prepared to use them. It's better than losing your life if something goes badly awry.

These planes sometimes go wrong when the pilot has done nothing wrong at all. It makes sense to have the escape option.

Nigel

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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by Piston Broke » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:01 pm

quicksilver-wsr wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:35 am

Service them, arm them and be prepared to use them. It's better than losing your life if something goes badly awry.

Nigel
True but should be one way or the other either serviced with full proof of service and ready to go or disabled. I remember reading a accident report or Bill telling me about an accident when a ejector seat misfired on a commanded eject and only half the locks released and it was found afterward it was cobbled together with bits of copper pipe and plumbing fixings which had parted firing the pilot in to the locked canopy
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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by conistoncollie » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:52 pm

This is getting silly.
We don't want any of that.

I get all that 'vehicle is safe even if it doesn't have its 'bit of paper'' stuff.
I even get the bit about an operator doing something catastrophic/erroneous/misjudged with an otherwise 'safe' machine (be it car or aircraft or steam loco), with or without its 'bit of paper' (eg MoT, Permit to fly, boiler certificate etc).

My point - and forgive me if this is silly (with due doffing of cap to those with superior knowledge/understanding of aviation matters) - is:

Is compliance with terms of a permit to fly:
a) Mandatory ?
or
b) Discretionary ?

If (b), who has the authority to exercise such discretion, who decides which bits of the terms of the permit are applicable/superfluous to safety/risk assessed?

If there are bits of a permit to fly that are of no consequence to safety, why are they there?
I'm not trying to be silly, just trying to understand.

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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by Mike Bull » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:35 pm

conistoncollie wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:52 pm

Is compliance with terms of a permit to fly:
a) Mandatory ?
or
b) Discretionary ?
Mandatory, absolutely 100%. But of course, sometimes procedures slip, mistakes are made, etc. As these things come to light- sadly, usually after accident investigations- so the CAA ever-tightens the reigns to prevent further occurrences.
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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by Renegadenemo » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:29 pm

I remember reading a accident report or Bill telling me about an accident when a ejector seat misfired on a commanded eject and only half the locks released and it was found afterward it was cobbled together with bits of copper pipe and plumbing fixings which had parted firing the pilot in to the locked canopy
It was the South African Lighting accident. The seat wasn't cobbled but the gas cartridges were plumbed to their various destinations through copper pipes with compression fittings. The report concluded that when the ejection was commanded the pipe taking gas to the left hand side of the cockpit popped out of the ferrule. That cartridge was supposed to unlatch the canopy on both sides but only the right hand side was unlatched. Gas pressure from the first cartridge then fired the second, which was supposed to extend two jacks to lift the rim of the canopy into the airflow and ensure it was torn away. That would then release the interlocks to allow the seat to fire but all that happened is that one jack extended twisting the released, right hand side of the canopy whilst the left hand jack exploded. Now with the canopy twisted the manual release wouldn't work and with the interlocks still in place the seat wouldn't fire. And that was the end of that.
The cartridges are just bottles of black powder so as such they can't really run out of life but they are lifed anyway. They can be years out of date and therefore technically the aircraft shouldn't be flying for paperwork reasons but they'll still work.
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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:57 pm

One thing everyone can agree on is that it's essential to have seats in a fully-serviceable condition, otherwise they are - at best - a cruel joke played on the hapless occupant. Same goes for any associated safety hardware.

Nigel

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Re: The Vulcan XH558 & General Aviation Thread

Post by Renegadenemo » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:54 am

I understand what you are saying but all of the above could happen to any aircraft from a little Cessna to a Airbus 777
Cheeky of Airbus to name an aircraft a 777 when Boeing got there first... :lol:
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