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Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:23 pm
by JfromJAGs
Ernie Lazenby wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:50 pm
Joerg let's not get personal. It's the business of anyone who has contributed towards the rebuild or the building of the Ruskin Museum extension.
Honestly, I just wanted to know why you keep pushing this question. I didn't understand it, because my experience tells me that it's much better to not argue over unclear legal issues in public and especially not on forums or social media where the only way to express yourself are the keys of your keyboard.

I think most people want to see K7 run on the historic Coniston water again and also see here in the museum there - but seeing her on Bute, roaring and dabbling in Loch Fad is a completely different experience. I want more of this!

I trust the people in charge of these questions to find a good solution to all of this - and the less beeing argued about this in public, the better and easier it is for them.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:28 pm
by ace_chris
The Bluebird revolution! Sounds good! Bill and the team are visionaries which threatens the narrow minded beaurocrats who like to look at dead machines locked up in museums.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 pm
by Renegadenemo
Bill and the team are visionaries
Wow! That's a big word and thank you for putting it in the same sentence as us.

Have to say that when we're puzzling over a lost canopy or covered in kero or hyd oil we don't feel so visionary. It's just what we do to unwind and relax, how we get together and we had the greatest adventure in Bute and a lot of people were thrilled to watch us turning kero into gas and water into steam. Would be such a shame if that was that...

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:28 pm
by Malcolm Ops
Ernie Lazenby wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:53 pm
Malcolm. When that bye law was approved there was no intention of taking K7 to Bute or anywhere other than Coniston
Wrong!

Even when the Bye Law was 'approved' the BBP still had a number of alternative options in mind for the Proving Trial location. The LDNPA members did not approve any other running on Coniston Water which has forced the hand of the BBP. Whilst Bute was not named, the need for access to some other water was in the mind of BBP personnel for floatation, crew training and running of the craft.

"You never enter into any 'negotiation' without a fallback plan". With the BBP you may have two or three (or more) plans.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:36 pm
by Ernie Lazenby
Malcolm. Well there has now been a proving trial location- Bute. The trials certainly proved K7 runs well and indeed at a speed faster than the 100mph it was intended to be run at on Coniston. That being so the original purpose of the Coniston Bye law has passed. To run it there now is beyond a proving trial is it not. Demonstration run(s). Does the bye law allow for multi runs or the one proving trial?
BTW Plans can be flawed. The hamster and Elvington comes to mind. An interesting report on that one. Any plan can fail to the unexpected or not considered possibility.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:01 pm
by Malcolm Ops
Ernie Lazenby wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:36 pm
there has been a proving trial location- Bute. That being so the original purpose of the Coniston Bye law has passed. To run it there now is beyond a proving trial is it not. Demonstration run. Does the bye law allow for multi runs or the one proving trial?

Plans can be flawed. The hamster and Elvington comes to mind. An interesting report on that one.
I am not able to talk about the second 'point' that you have raised, as BBC lawyers are still hovering in case anyone speaks about the Elvington happening twelve years later. I take it that you are pointing out the HSE report, which has been widely available in the last decade. If my name is entered in any search engine it brings up that report at about item five or six should any reader of this forum have missed that topic.

There has not been a 'Proving Trial' on Loch Fad on the Isle of Bute.

The Coniston Bye law stands - and any and all powered runs on Coniston Water are defined as either development runs or proving runs. The 'event' can still take place, should the LDNPA give permission. The Bye law defines and explains everything and is available to be read on the LDNPA website.

Not sure what "Demonstration run." means to you, but such a term is not defined in the Bye Law, so it would not be allowed on Coniston Water.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:10 pm
by Ernie Lazenby
Malcolm said 'There has not been a 'Proving Trial' on Loch Fad on the Isle of Bute'. semantics Malcolm.

Anyone watching the boat would conclude it was being tested/proved whatever.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:20 pm
by Healey nut
Some keyboard commandos just wont let it go .

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:34 pm
by Malcolm Ops
Ernie Lazenby wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:10 pm
semantics
"relating to meaning in language"

So 'anyone' will know more than the person in control of the crew training exercise. Your view may not be that of others who watched what was happening on Loch Fad. The crew and her pilots were learning each time K7 took to the water; was started; moved under power.

Words and language are important still. The Bye Law, that was approved by the Secretary of State, is for Coniston Water and that water alone.

If your interpretation Ernie were to be accepted widely, then Bluebird K7 will never be allowed on to Coniston Water. This would ruin any plans by the village for a Coniston Festival Event to host the Proving Trial (of K7) as its central feature.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:43 pm
by Renegadenemo
The trials certainly proved K7 runs well and indeed at a speed faster than the 100mph it was intended to be run at on Coniston.
Where that ever came from I have no idea. Certainly we never mentioned a specific speed, it may have been the press.

As for a proving trial on Loch Fad. At very best it can be described as partial. Deploy two safety boats over a mile course along with their rescue divers, firefighters and crew. Have them get into position after sweeping the course, scattering ducks or fishermen or both. Then they have to send back the wind data so we know we're in limits. Once that is done, Shoreside can tell Control that we're good to run and it falls between Control, the start boat and the pilot to execute a clean start and release.
Now add another four miles to that. It's not four times the work and coordination, it's twenty times. We came away from Loch Fad knowing how to launch and recover and operate over very short distances. To operate on Coniston is a whole new ball game so to imagining that Fad was any sort of a realistic trial is frankly naive.

And I'll also wager that the LDNPA and whoever else won't be able to get their act together to organise and promote an event at Coniston for 2019 and nor will terms be agreed for display, maintenance, conservation and further running by then either. With the full and dedicated support of the Isle of Bute and the MST, seven months was a push but we squeaked it. They have about ten months.

And I trust that the Hamster / Elvington thing wasn't a deliberate swipe at our Malcolm as that would be seriously below the belt.