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Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:56 pm
by Renegadenemo
Hi ho hi ho its off to court we go as I predicted ...
Google aint going to hold up in court Bill , without signed sealed documents to prove you have an accepted agreement this is all dead and “not in the water “ ...
The “agreement “ has about as much use as a sheet of two ply toilet paper . However the two ply will be softer to use .
This is going to be tied up in court for ages and the only ones happy are the lawyers .
I guess my UK trip is cancelled for this year and probably the next and the one after that and the one after that .............
Very much not the case but we'll get to that in the fullness of time.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:36 pm
by ace_chris
I find it very interesting that why all of a sudden the museum want to get their grubby little paws on K7...Are the museum in danger of a breach of contract with the EU for taking the near million quid off the EU to build the Ruskin extension for K7 for their to actually be...no K7 displayed!

Bill and the team have been nothing less than open and honest in their dialogue and communication with the museum and wider Coniston community. Whereas the other party put up wall of silence, hardly a good reflection in Court.

Its interesting to read the weight a verbal contract carries - When it goes to court the judge could include investigating what actually happened in practice. This can include the services that were actually undertaken and if any money whatsoever was paid for any services (interesting as the team effectively rebuilt K7 for free). It could be proved that the museum did know about and intended for K7 to run, because they were aware of and did not oppose the amended bye-law that Sir Malcolm successfully passed. I suspect the museum intended not to carry through on the agreement.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:49 am
by Renegadenemo
When it goes to court the judge could include investigating what actually happened in practice.
Of course it isn't going to court. Well at least not at our instigation anyway. We'll go if we absolutely have to but we have a thing called a telephone in our office that allows you to speak with people as though they are in the room with you and we swear by it but in the worst case I guess a motoring analogy might best explain what actually happened in practice.

*


Your mate from over the street has just inherited a farm from his recently passed Italian uncle so you offer to whizz over there and take a look to see what he’s just come into. Mostly it’s nothing until you open the garage and there you find the most astonishing thing. A one-off, prototype Ferrari widely regarded as lost to history yet there it is, in the flesh – or at least some of it. There’s a chassis and some of the body but the engine is missing as are the electrics and the bonnet. The interior is gone and everything is corroded to Hell but its soul is limping on under hints of that cherry red paint.

Wow! You call your mate, this is tremendously exciting so he agrees to you going to enormous efforts to bring it back and then you both stare at it long and hard and wonder just what to do with it.

“You know what,” You say one day. “I can get that back together for you if you like.”

“Really?”

“Yeah, I reckon. Might have to call in a favour or two and get some mates to help out but I think I can get it done and best of all it’ll cost you nothing.”

What a deal! So with that agreed, off you go studying and researching until the day comes when you can finally announce with confidence that it’s within your skill set and everything needed can be sourced one way or another. The deal is struck but there’s a rider. If you’re going to put your heart and soul into this you want a deal – you want to look after the finished product, see it go, maybe even drive it (or have someone properly qualified do it for you) but considering what you’re about to sign up to it’s a small ask so your mate says yes at once, absolutely. I mean, not only does he get his unexpected and priceless Ferrari rebuilt for free he also gets it maintained indefinitely. He can’t believe his good fortune! Then you say to him, look, I’m going to be flat out on this job so how about you get talking to some motoring people about what we might do once the job is finished? No problem, of course, leave it with me, he says and on that basis off you all go.

But fast-forward a few years and it’s getting very serious. You’ve got all your mates involved and organised a garage and loads of tools and it’s quite a slick operation but the standard has to be extremely high and If you’re going to do this right you have to get the original drawings out of the Ferrari factory and they are only going to take you seriously if they believe this is going to be the last word in rebuilds and every Ferrari enthusiast on the globe is watching you. You want an engine block cast and a crank and pistons machined but there’s no money to pay the outrageous sums it would really cost so you use all your skills to run your little resto like a business except with no money, raising purchase orders for fortunes-worth of goods and services that you can only pay for with the promise that one day your creditors will see this fabulous car at Goodwood or at the Maranello factory or wherever else is deemed appropriate. It’s a bit of a precarious position.

So you go back to your mate and say, hey, I’ve managed to buy some original wheels, don’t worry you can have them once we get sorted, the trimmers have made new seats for the love of it from period leather and I’ve wheedled the drawings out of Ferrari so we can get a new engine built from scratch but I need you to totally assure me that you will underwrite all of this with the promise that we really can show this car off when it’s done. No problem, your mate says, but just to be extra, double sure, you write it all down in great detail, send it over and say, what do you think? He mails you straight back to say it’s all absolutely fine, no problems , only adding a few short notes to make sure you dip the oil and check the tyre pressures before you start the engine but otherwise all’s extremely well. You take him at his word, conduct yourself in strict accordance with what you both agreed and file away all the emails. They won’t be needed, of course, because he’s your mate of 20 years but you both might want to look back through it one day for the sake of nostalgia while you watch your Ferrari roar around a circuit somewhere.

Excellent – you’ll take that, but gently remind him that he’s supposed to be organising the big unveil just like on Car SOS.
Anyway – you can work out the ending. Your superhuman efforts with your good buddies and dedicated sponsors, donors and supporters gets the thing finished bar a few tweaks while your mate does bugger all about the big unveil while your frustrations mount until he just says, hey, it’s my car anyway, my uncle left it to me so just stuff it in my garage and go home.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am
by Healey nut
Signed contract = legally binding agreement between two or more parties to complete something.
Verbal agreement, non binding often misinterpreted.....
Promise , often broken or empty ie “the check is in the mail” or “I’ll pay you back next week”

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:14 am
by ace_chris
Thanks for the analogy Bill, apologies about including the court reference, Chris

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:56 am
by midlife
That’s me late for work again after my daily fix...
Cheers
Wayne


.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:16 pm
by Filtertron
Healey nut wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am
Signed contract = legally binding agreement between two or more parties to complete something.
Verbal agreement, non binding often misinterpreted.....
Promise , often broken or empty ie “the check is in the mail” or “I’ll pay you back next week”
I guess there is a degree of schadenfreude in this for you...?

As long as there is a paper trail between both parties, and the BBP can back it up in court there shouldn't be a problem. If the BBP can prove an agreement is in place and they have adhered to it, there doesn't need to be a signed contract. It might actually be the Rusken which finds itself in hot water.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:36 pm
by Healey nut
Filtertron wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:16 pm
Healey nut wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am
Signed contract = legally binding agreement between two or more parties to complete something.
Verbal agreement, non binding often misinterpreted.....
Promise , often broken or empty ie “the check is in the mail” or “I’ll pay you back next week”
I guess there is a degree of schadenfreude in this for you...?
Absolutely not , I want to see K7 on the water at power more than anything , its on my bucket list . I have followed the project now for ages and donated to the cause .
I would much prefer that the BBP and the Ruskin sit down like adults and hash things out and reach an agreement that pleases both sides and secures the future of K7 both as a static and running piece of history.
It seems at the moment that all there is is she said he said and lots of mudslinging on social media instead of real progress on where and when K7 will end up .
However without a signed contract its going to be whole lot more difficult to establish who owns and has the rights to which bits and if K7 will ever see open water again .

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:36 pm
by bluebirdsback
Many moons ago when i was self employed i entered into a verbal agreement which was I would sort the wiring problems in a blokes corner shop and at the end of it he would give me some money. I carried out my side of the deal and invoiced the guy and awaited for him to send me a check to complete his side of the deal. After many reminders nothing happened. I then vivsted said corner shop several times but he was never there. On my last visit i did meet his twin brother. Likeness was scary, even down to the mole on his cheek. So i then aproached the County Court route. When we both sat in front of the judge in a room he sent us into a side room to try and sort it but the corner shop guy of Asian decent had now lost the ability to speak English. Exept to say he wasnt happy with the work. To cut a long story short after looking at my qualifications the judge ruled that in all probability the work had been done to an acceptable level and awarded me the full ammount owed plus costs i had paid to get to court.
No signed contract to say he would pay me after the job. Only his word. But the judge saw common sense. Just goes to show you dont need signed contracts to get justice.

By the way I did then design a form for customers to sign they were happy with my work before invoicing them.

Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird in museum home row

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:15 am
by Renegadenemo
I would much prefer that the BBP and the Ruskin sit down like adults and hash things out and reach an agreement

I'd like to make a point here because so many observers have said that we should stop the squabbling and sit down like grownups and they are both absolutely right and completely unfair. BBP has been trying for weeks and months to have our museum partners even take a phone call without result. We did not instigate this squabble. We would have gladly met a long time ago to sort this out but we are in the unfortunate position of being like the chap who went out for a quiet beer with the missus only to have some drunken fool throw a punch. Wasn't our idea to be rolling around the bar room floor right now so please don't criticise us too harshly for rising to our own defence.

So - in the interests of stopping the squabble, sitting down like adults, etc. we offer the following.



Open Letter to The Ruskin Museum Trustees.


Dear Sirs,

As conventional means of communication seem not to be working at this time we write to you via our forum as we know you read it.

We write to suggest that the current situation is not achieving anything and has been proven a wrong-turn at best. We therefore invite you to put this unfortunate episode behind us and join with us in displaying K7 in Scotland for the benefit of the public on the July dates vacated by the BEWG.

Should you not wish to join with us would you either confirm that you have no objection to us displaying K7 without your participation or set out for all concerned any objections you may have in in this regard in order that we may all fully understand your position.

We sincerely hope that you will embrace this opportunity as this would not only provide an invaluable resource for both BBP and the museum going forward with regard to future running and, in particular, running on Coniston Water, but also an ongoing opportunity to discuss any fine-tuning of our various agreements with a view to finalising the matter.

We would be grateful also if you would have your response with us no later than 4.00pm on Saturday 13th April in order that we may make the most efficient use of the limited time remaining.

Should we not hear from you by this time we shall take this to mean that you have no comment or wish of involvement in either instance and that we are free to proceed and will therefore issue a press release on Monday 15th April 2019 to the effect that K7 will be displayed running on the water for public benefit in Scotland between July 19th and July 29th 2019.

We await your response and remain.

Yours faithfully.
The Bluebird Project.