Nomadic, Titanic & other historic vessels

[Mike Bull]

I suspect Victory would fare less well if someone left a hoover running!

[Pullman99]

I don't know quite how true it is, but someone told me once that you could probably count on your fingers & toes the number of planks & frames that actually sailed into the Battle of Trafalgar.

I think that it may have been the then Curator of the Royal Naval Museum (as it was called at the time) who told me that about 80% of the hull of HMS Victory below the waterline survives from her construction at Chatham and launch in 1765. i have been shown areas of the ship that are not nortmally accessed by visitors and it is truly amazing. Hopefully, visitors can be made more aware of this hidden detail as the new restoration progresses. I used to work with HMS Warrior and meetings of the Portsmouth Naval Heritage Trust - of which HMS Warrior was a member - were held monthly in Nelson's flagship - Captain Hardy's cabin to be precise! I think that the arrangements that have been made to create a separate structure for the ship's guardians is the most sensible way forward given the current constraints on defence spending and the earmarking of £25M would seem to be relatively modest given all that has gone before. I do believe, however, that the assertion that "fundraising will be very easy" to meet future costs is both wrong and quite dangerous for a Trustee to make.

Mentioning Indycar constructors is apt for another reason as the analogy with racing cars is clear. Both are, effectively, entities that evolve with changing requirements, campaigns and regulations. The refits and the later damage repairs and restorations, the longest of which - to date - was the one completed for the bicentenray of Trafalgar, were intended to maintain or restore the ship as close as possible to her appearnce of 1805. Interestingly, some 50 years or so ago, her then Captain had launched a serious and costed study (about £1M) to return the ship to sea!

[Pullman99]

And...another.

The Falklands veteran HMS Plymouth is reported in a number of publications as being "sold for scrap"

This is, perhaps, inevitable as she was never under any kind of protection from the MOD and, although transferred to the care of a charity in 1987 (The Warship Preservation Trust), she has led a bit of a nomadic existence ever since. The WW1 Monitor Minerva - partially restored at Hartlepool - was at one time intended to be part of the same "fleet". Initially berhed at Plymouth, that city seemes never to have taken "ownership" of the concept that an important vessel bearing the city's name (as well as having been built in Devonport) would be an appropriate addition to its tourism and cultural heritage. She broke free of her moorings and suffered some damage in the storms of late 1987.

For the past several years she has been moored in Birkenhead alongside other historic ships. One of these, HMS Onyx, was later sold to a private owner in Barrow-in-Furness intende to form the basis for the Submarine Heritage Centre there. Now, it seems, it's all a bit too late - and in the 30th anniversary of the Falklands conflict as well - which leaves no surface warship of any scale preserved in Britain since HMS Belfast.

More here:

http://www.motorboatsmonthly.co.uk/news/531005/falklands-veteran-sold-for-scrap

[Terminator]

Hi Ian
You mentioned the submarine Onyx which was based at Barrow dock. Is it still there or has it gone somewhere else? Only we passed the site on Greg's insistence the other day and were Onyx was I thought I saw a new A class sub "Ambush" and not Onyx moored up in the dock? Had only a passing glimpse you see due to traffic.
Cheers
Novie
"I've gone"

[Pullman99]

Hi Novie,

Not quite sure. Perhaps Jordangbr might have an update??

The original intention for Barrow's Sunmarine Heritage Centre, as I understand it, was to to repatriate HMS Olympus from Canada and a fundraising programme was launched to get that project underway. I believe there was going to be some help from the MOD and the Canadians. For whatever reason, that plan did not proceed and one of the members of the Submariners Associateion then acquired HMS Onyx from the disbanded Birkenhead collection and moved it to Barrow. However, going back slightly further I do understand that the Association seemed keen on the idea of preserving a submarine at Barrow and had already considered at least one other Cammell Laird built boat (as, indded is HMS Onyx)

This always seemed a bit at odds with the fact that the lead shipyard for the O Class had been Vickers at Barrow and I know that it was suggested very strongly to the Association that having a non-Barrow built boat preserved there would be a bit of an insult! Anyway, that seems to have been what has come to pass. HMS Olympus was scrapped in Ontario late in 2011. In my view, the project has suffered from lack of focus and a seeming reluctance by the loacal authority - and its Dock Museum - to have very much close involvement. There had been the suggestion of accommodating Onyx in the graving dock but - unless this has now happened - I'm not sure what the alternative would be.

Meanwhile all the decommissioned nuclear powered submarines are - I believe - at Rosyth. The one vessel that there had been a fairly serious consideration for preservation at Barrow was HMS Valiant, the first all British designed nuclear submarine and the next one after HMS Dreadnought to be built at Barrow. The scheme even had a name The Hastings Project (her Yard Number is 1066!). It's been done in the USA and in France but not, as yet, here.

[Jordangbr]

Novie
HMS Ambush is currently afloat in Devonshire Dock next to the build hall as she is commissioning her systems and Onyx is still mouldering away in Buccleuch Dock opposite Morrisons.
Still no further news on what is to happen to her but my guess would be the breakers yard.

[Jordangbr]

Best vantage point to see Onyx is from the quayside next to Morrisons.

[Terminator]

Thanks for that Jordan
I forgot you lived in that area, Silly me I do hope they do not scrap the submarine that would be a real shame. Would I be right in amusing the Onyx was built in Barrow/ And if so why do they not get it into the Dock Museum for all to see inside and out. Even if it wasn't built in Barrow they have a strong submarine heritage. I am very interested in the X craft and its virtual suicide mission in the Norwegian Fjord attacking the Tirpitz in September 1943. especially the X5 that was never found and its unorthodox Captain Henty Creer who never got awarded a medal unlike the captains of the X6 and X7. It was felt he did not reach his target and lay his charges? His sister wrote a book and disagreed with the Admiralty and tried to prove he and his crew should have been awarded their medal. Bill has his own take on matters regarding Henty Creer but I will leave that to him to put sensitively if he wishes.

Novie
I've Gone

[Pullman99]

Would I be right in amusing the Onyx was built in Barrow/ And if so why do they not get it into the Dock Museum for all to see inside and out. Even if it wasn't built in Barrow they have a strong submarine heritage. I am very interested in the X craft and its virtual suicide mission in the Norwegian Fjord attacking the Tirpitz in September 1943.

Hi Novie. The X Craft story is quite well covered at the Royal Navy Submarine Museum at Gosport. You are quite correct about Barrow being linked very closely to the story of the submarine and, although two of the Garratt /Nordenfelt submarines (for Turkey) were built at Barrow in the 1880s, the real story starts in 1900 with the construction of the first of a batch of five submarines for the Royal Navy. HM Submarine Boat No.1 - designed by the Irish-American pioneer John Philip Holland - was commissioned in 1901. She is now preserved at Gosport. From that early work, the relationship between Barrow and the Electric Boat Company of New London began and continues to this day. Please see my post above in relation to HMS Onyx. although the Class was designed in Barrow (as lead shipyard) she was actually built by Cammell Laird in Birkenhead.

I believe that Morrison's still has some display panels telling Barrow's submarine story and, as Jordangbr says, HMS Onyx can be seen across Buccleuch Dock. One of the more interesting supermarket car parks!

Incidentally, Barrow's first entirely British designed submarine for the Royal Navy - HMS A1 - also still exists. I've always been fascinated by the fact that it was powered by a 16 cylinder engine made by Wolseley (another part of the Vickers empire of course). Unfortunately it's located on the wet side of Selsey Bill!

[Jordangbr]

Onyx is a Cammel Laird boat as originally the group wanted to ship Olympus back to Barrow as it was built here. They didn't have the necessary funds to repatriate the boat from Canada so they purchased Onyx as she was up for sale.
As for putting her in the old graving dock outside the Dock Museum that would prove difficult due to the build up of sand in front of the dock gate.