John Cobb- Crusader/Railton Special

[BentleyK6]

I know that the conversation on this blog has now moved on to John Cobb's LSR Railton car which currently languishes in the Think Tank in Birmingham, however my post refers back to the comments made by Steve on 20th October relating to John Cobb and Crusader.

I have been lucky enough to have had access to the entire project files for Crusader including all the related correspondence which was in the private safe keeping of Peter Du Cane's Secretary until the late eighties. I would like to query where Steve has sourced the 'hundreds of pages of correspondence and internal memos' relating to v-ing the shoes or water contact points which apparently demonstrated cost cutting and an 'I know better than you' attitude on Vospers part.

The files, which are complete, contain about 5 pages on this subject so I would very much like to hear more about the copious additional information sourced by Steve?

There is adequate evidence in the files that, far from an 'I know better than you' attitude, Du Cane and Vospers actively sought and consulted outside opinions in many disciplines throughout the project. The full project files are now available at Brooklands archive and will be available for any serious researcher to examine.

The Terms of Use of this site which I have just accepted specifically binds me not to post any material which is 'slanderous'. As someone who is particularly familiar with the detailed history of this project, I consider it slanderous to accuse anyone of 'cost cutting/arrogance' and thereby imply that this caused the failure of the craft and the death of a great and dearly loved man.

Nonsense has circulated on this subject since the day of the accident. As someone who has no direct connection to the constructors, their employees or the families and witnesses involved, 'The Last Crusader' is, in my opinion, the most accurate and balanced account to date of that ill-fated but inspiring endeavour.

[quicksilver-wsr]

The Terms of Use of this site which I have just accepted specifically binds me not to post any material which is 'slanderous'. As someone who is particularly familiar with the detailed history of this project, I consider it slanderous to accuse anyone of 'cost cutting/arrogance' and thereby imply that this caused the failure of the craft and the death of a great and dearly loved man.

I have had no involvement in the discussion about the Crusader accident - and have no wish to, going forward, other than to say that Cobb's boat was much, much better than many people nowadays give credit for. Sadly, the accident overshadowed it.

On a legal point, there is a fact in law: "You cannot slander the dead". All of the key figures in this story are now departed and so cannot be slandered.

The point therefore becomes not a legal one, but a moral one as to whether any of the personalities involved in the Crusader story should be highlighted as having contributed to the accident.

We arrive at the same problem that I was only too well aware of on the Quicksilver thread. Namely, how far is it fair to go in finger-pointing at people who are no longer alive to defend, justify or explain their actions?

Do we go all the way, in the interests of getting to the truth? Or is it better left alone?

A moral minefield?

Mistakes were made on the Crusader project, no question. People will take a view, one way or the other - rightly or wrongly - as to whether blame should be apportioned and, if so, where fault lies. But on the specific point of legality, there is no issue of slander.

[f1steveuk]

As promised, I shall refrain from saying anything that might provoke a slanging match, as that is not why we are here.

I saw all of the material, while Vospers still had an archive, and dealt directly with the person charged with looking after it. I now refer to the notes I made at that time. The material was at one time at the Hampshire Archive, but has since been removed although in the last conversation I had with them, they were still expecting it back, so I wonder what is at Brooklands, these originals or copies? Much of the material was copied and sent to someone who was very much involved, and who still has the copied set. I still have much of what was sent to me by Vospers themselves, including drawings and photographs. I have also had, and still have access to to "other side" of the material, e.g the secretaries copies of the letters sent to Vospers beseeching the V-ing of the shoes, and the discussion with the one crucial area where although certain things were specified, they were not carried out.

Nothing slanderous, all in black and white, and some in print in "The Last Crusader".

As regards your sentance, "I consider it slanderous to accuse anyone of 'cost cutting/arrogance' and thereby imply that this caused the failure of the craft and the death of a great and dearly loved man". Believe me, if there is any doubt over the material I have, I would not use it, but as stated, some of this has already been put in print in "TLC", and in passing there is a reference to the crux of the Crusader's failure, and why it wasn't addressed during construction. Cobb was a hero of mine too, and his death had an impact on many, including the originator of the design.

I don't think I am unique, but very few have had access to ALL of the material, that is to say Vospers, Railton's, Cobb's, DeHaviland's and Faireys, but I have, and I do find "TLC" biased toward Vospers, and I am not in a minoriety.

[f1steveuk]

As the tumbleweed seems to have rolled across this thread since my response I thought I would just add that now, having spokent to John at Brooklands, and he is the archivist, he has seen no such collection of deposited documents, either originals (which are supposed to have been returned to the Hampshire archive, but as yet haven't) or as copies.

So as I am being questioned as to where I have seen any archive, and have answered, could I ask the same question of BentleyK6, in return?

[Pullman99]

Of the road transport exhibits, there are a couple of early bicycles, three motorcycles, a Star, an Austin Ten, and an experimental Lanchester, all mounted on a Goodwood style “sculpture”.

Wonder if they borrowed this idea from the Musee Nationale des Arts et Metiers in Paris? In the museum's original building, a converted church, during its renovation in 2000 they built a fully walk-round/up affair and mainly displays early road cars but with - and again out of context and uncaptioned - an ex-Alain Prost Renault RE40 Formula 1 car from 1983.





Oh...and a Leyat aerocar!



The National Motor Museum is currently building a new mezzanine above the record breakers display and which will also - I think - remove some of the "sculptural" display dedicated to F1 cars but which makes them almost totally unviewable. It's due for completion at Easter. Bluebird CN7 was up on its transport trailer to aid access when I was there the previous week.

Fascinating place and I mainly visited during last week to see the original Fardier de Cugnot, the world's first self-propelled vehicle built in 1769/71.



A working reproduction has just been completed by Alain and Olivier Cerf for their Tampa Bay Automobile Museum in Florida and that was demonstrated at Retromobile. Great stuff, but what would Elfin Safety have had to say in the 18th Century - or even last Thursday!





Arts et Metiers site here: http://www.arts-et-metiers.net/

Tampa Bay Automobile Museum site: http://tbauto.org/index.php

[Pullman99]

I was in the National Motor Museum last week and, as previously noted, they are making progress on building their new mezzanine. There are quite a few cars scattered around a bit at the moment but if you're visiting, the entrance "Hall of Fame" has an exhibition on "Feats of Endurance" which has a whole heap of interesting things including the 1970 World Cup Rally winning Ford Escort of Hannu Mikkola and Gunnar Palm. Strangely, no caption with this so hopefully one of the most famous individual cars in the world will not be ignored by visitors!



Bluebird CN7 is currently mounted on its transporation trailer for ease of movement. The mezzanine will partly replace the personally hateful ramps used for the racing cars which almost entirely made them unviewable. Here's what it will look like.









The 350hp Sunbeam and Golden Arrow hav also been displaced although that currently makes it much easier to photograph them.









Should be a great improvement hopefully and the work should be completed in time for Easter.

[f1steveuk]

Golden Arrow, beautiful, simply beautiful!

[Renegadenemo]

Golden Arrow, beautiful, simply beautiful!

Have to agree - did that have a W-configuration engine in there?

[f1steveuk]

Yep the Napier Lion W12 or broad arrow. I have it on very good authority, that the clearance between the rocker covers of the engine and thee bodywork is miniscule, well the whole of the bodywork is very very tight fitting, a fine rendition of the coachbuilders art!

[Excelsior2007]

Hi all. This past week I have been on holiday up at Drumnadrochit on the shores of Loch Ness, where John Cobb made his final attempt at the World Water Speed Record in 1952. There is a memorial to him, and an information board, which also gives information about a book that has been writing about Crusader and John Cobb's attempt. I have been trying all week to buy a copy of this book, and today I have succeeded. The book is called The Last Crusader and is by Barry Stobart-Hook.

I also took a cruise on Loch Ness as well this week, and one of the landmarks that was pointed out to us was a pole with a triangular mark on it which was at the start of John Cobb's measured mile. A very fascinating experience indeed.